ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Dinner SOS, test kitchen director and host Chris Morocco taps test kitchen manager Inés Anguiano to help Jen learn to cook pork.
Jen and her family love to eat, and Jen considers herself more than capable in the kitchen, yet pork is synonymous with failure. It always turns out too dry or too tough, to the point where she feels like she has to practically choke it down. Her kids call pork the “eat-out” food because it’s what they default to ordering in restaurants, since they can’t find joy in it at home.. She’s looking for general guidance to follow so she can successfully cook pork for her family.
Chris brings in Inés, a self proclaimed pork stan. Both Chris and Ines don’t believe there are any hard-and-fast rules with pork. Instead, they suggest recipes that offer two approaches—the slow lane and the fast lane, in terms of time required. Inés also explains to Jen which cuts are optimal for low-and-slow braising, smoking, and roasting to avoid future mishaps. Inés recommends Kendra Vaculin's Citrus Braised Pork with Crispy Shallots for that shreddy, tender deliciousness. Chris suggests speedier options like Kendra’s Crispy Pork Cutlets with Kimchi Slaw, which are pounded, breaded and pan-fried, for fast weeknight succulence.
Listen now to hear if Jen is able to conquer her pork fails with these helpful tips from Chris and Inés.
Chris Morocco: Did you ever see that Simpsons episode where Lisa's talking about how she's going to go vegetarian. And Homer's like, "What you mean sausages? You mean pork chops? You mean bacon?" And she's like, "Dad, those are all from the same animal." And he's just like, "Sure. Some magical animal."
Hey there listeners, future callers and cooking enthusiasts. Welcome to Dinner S.O.S, the show where we help you save dinner or whatever you're cooking. I'm Chris Morocco, food director of Bon, Appetit and Epicurious. Today's caller, Jen lives in New Jersey with her family and they're all very into food.
Jen: We are really big cooks. My daughter actually, she's soaking cashews as we speak. She left the house and was like, "No one touch my cashews. I'm making milk later." We were like, "Oh my God." But we really are...
CM: Even though Jen is herself a highly competent and creative cook, she's stymied when it comes to one specific protein.
J: For some reason, no matter what I do with pork, it's awful. It's tough, it's too dry. I could put it in some kind of a crock pot situation and somehow that comes out dry. That you're like, I don't understand how I went too far with that. I need a hard and fast one or two rules of if you always do this, pork will always be palatable because for all the foodie situations that we find ourselves in, pork is actually, my kids call it the eat out food because as soon as we're eating out somewhere, my husband loves pork and the kids are like, "Oh my god, daddy, it's on a menu. Go, go, go get the pork. We're here. Go, pounce." It's like this unicorn of food that you cannot get at home.
CM: I'm so curious. Can you give me just two or three quick hit examples of preparations you tried and failed at?
J: So I would say I could do a tenderloin in the crock pot and drown it in a good quality barbecue sauce to do a pulled pork. And even at that, it's not right, but in the past I've tried to do a quick sear on something and then you finish it in the oven or I'll try it in the frying pan and then I'll get some color on it, caramelize it a little bit, but add broth and things and cover it and then try to soften it up that way and it's just blah. It's kind of like a stain on my kitchen record, if you will. I'm perfectly capable, but can you say that if there's a whole food group that's off the table can then you really say you're that capable?
CM: I already have some hypotheses here and you mentioned a recent pork fail. It was a tenderloin in a crock pot and you mentioned some kind of barbecue sauce type situation on it. And when you did this, were you kind of riffing? Were you experimenting or were you following someone's playbook, like a recipe or other resource you had found?
J: No, I feel like totally busted. That would be just riffing, put it in and be like, "I'll be back in a few hours." Yeah.
CM: Okay. And what you were looking for in that moment was shred-ability, that was your primary kind of criteria for your end point that you were trying to achieve?
J: Yeah, I think I just want it to not feel tough like you're choking on it when you're chewing it. And that's the one thing that for all the things that I watched, my dad has always been a good baker, my mom's a very good home cook, pork chops was under the broiler for a few minutes on each side and it was like, get it down as fast as you can and don't think about it because it was so tough.
CM: All right, this is all super helpful. A few other super quick hit questions and then I'm going to move on. Have you ever cooked pork shoulder in any way?
J: I have not.
CM: And have you ever made ribs, like pork ribs at home?
J: Yes.
CM: You have?
J: Yeah. Yeah. That actually he has down to a science that he'll do in terms of it marinates overnight, it gets a foil packet in the oven for a few hours, then it goes to the grill. That's a whole afternoon process.
CM: Yeah. What were the results like of those ribs when they came out after that marination, after that bake and then the sort of final blast on the grill?
J: Yeah, those are perfect. Yeah.
CM: Do you like them?
J: Fall off the bone.
CM: So you have had a really happy pork experience.
J: I guess. I don't know if I remember that as being pork. Maybe I have this trauma pork in my brain that I don't associate that with pork then maybe.
CM: Because it was just too good.
J: Because it's normal. It's normal and good food that I'm like you can't be pork.
CM: Pork is synonymous with failure in the kitchen for you. Okay. I do want to say that when I think of one meat that can truly do it all, from offering cuts that could be cooked like steak, having many different cuts that can be braised into shreddy tender perfection, things that can be preserved like the world of salumi, the magic that is pork fat and the transformational power that has in your cooking. Pork is not this monolith. And if there's one dream outcome I have for this series of conversations we're going to have, it's that we walk the word pork back in your mind from being kind of synonymous with all the kitchen fails you've had and really kind of open up all the different ways you can use different forms of this ingredient to just help you cook better food full stop.
J: We're ready to have pork in the rotation, so thank you so much for your time.
CM: Inés Anguiano, our associate test kitchen manager is something of a pork devotee.
Inés Anguiano: I love pork. Every part of the pig does something a little bit different, but I think that it's such a great vehicle for flavor. It gets better with marinating. So I think the pork is just fun.
CM: What a shame then that we're actually going to be talking about chicken today. I'm just joking. We're talking about pork. And when I walked into the test kitchen the morning we were going to talk about Jen, Inés just so happened to be rendering pork fat into lard and making chicharrones. I couldn't even believe it. I walked in, you're literally stewing a pot.
IA: This is making more sense. Your face, you're like, "What are we doing?"
CM: I was like, "Oh my gosh, we can't even plan things that well." Once we got into the studio, I filled Inés in on Jen and her previous pork foibles, and about her desire for some general pork cookbook rules. So even though pork is sort of a rule breaking ingredient, more on that later, we decided to offer Jen two different lanes to get her comfortable with cooking it at home.
IA: My two favorite ways to enjoy pork, if not fried, is low and slow. I think there's such beauty, and again, oftentimes pork is looked at as just this vehicle for flavor, but I think in itself it has so much to offer.
CM: So more of the kind of low slow camp.
IA: That's where I'm sort of-
CM: You want to kind of offer her?
IA: Yeah.
CM: Okay. So that means I'll take the fast approach and see if I can tempt her with that. I think it's going to be pivotal to her understanding of how to work with this ingredient that she does something low and slow. I'll make the very strong argument for that. Okay.
IA: For sure.
CM: But I do think it would be cool for her to work with a different kind of form of pork chop that maybe she just hasn't considered.
IA: Sometimes you just need to take it on one day.
CM: We are going to take a quick break, when we get back, we'll help Jen come face to snout with her porky nemesis.
Welcome back, Jen. How's everything been?
J: Good, good. Thank you so much.
CM: I want to introduce you to my co-host today, Bon Appetit associate test kitchen manager, Inés Anguiano. Hi Inés. How are you doing?
IA: Hi Chris. I'm doing pretty good. Hey Jen, it's so nice to meet you.
J: Hi Inés. Thank you so much.
CM: So Jen, I want to bring Inés into this conversation because not only is she a great recipe developer and collaborator with all of us folks in the test kitchen. She also loves pork.
IA: This is a pork stan account. I love everything about pork. I love every part of the pig. So that's where we're at with it today.
CM: So Jen, Inés and I talked about a lot of the different ways that you can prepare incredible pork at home. And what I wanted to outline for you is two different approaches because when we were talking, it really struck me that a lot of the preparations that you've been using, they're not quite getting at the sort of full on tender shreddy aspects of pork, which you yourself have enjoyed. Right? But also the times that you are using cuts that are slightly leaner, I think you're kind of pushing things like pork chops and pork tenderloin into this sort of middle ground where it's not quite braised, but it's not quite just sort of straight up seared and treated like steak either. Does that make sense?
J: Well, and I think probably my issue is I'm trying to do things quickly. So a weeknight dinner with a quick pork dish, is that something that's really achievable or is it like you should have started it at 9 A.M.
CM: The good news is yes, absolutely, we are going to give you some super fast pork solutions, but we're also going to give you some low and slow solutions that I think are really going to be optimal cuts for recreating the experience that you've had with those ribs of super gorgeous kind of melting flesh that wants to just sort of get forked right off the bone. And the thing that I wanted to kind of point out really is it's not that the flavors you used with your pork tenderloin are inherently bad or wrong or anything. It's just pork tenderloin ultimately, it's not really a braising cut.
IA: It's too lean.
CM: It's lean. Yeah.
IA: It's so prone to drying out. It's really just not sturdy enough to withhold that really just long slow cook.
J: Are there hard and fast rules of this kind of cut, don't ever do XYZ with it?
CM: Well, we're going to get to that because ultimately this is the question with pork, and what's maddening about pork is that there aren't super hard and fast rules.
IA: Not with pork.
CM: Not with pork. Pork keeps you guessing because pork kind of does it all. But let's get to that in a sec. Okay. Inés, do you want to just start by just talk to Jen about what are the cuts generally speaking that are optimal for low and slow braising, smoking, roasting?
IA: Sure. So Jen, when we're talking about just this long, slow cook, you're going to want to go for something that one has enough fat to support that sort of cook, but then also something that is more voluminous usually is a good way to go. So when I think of just low slow cooking, roasting cooking, braising cooking, I'm always going to go for either the pork shoulder or the pork butt. These are really cheap cuts, but they're really versatile. You can really lean on your braising liquid to do the heavy lifting. You can incorporate acid into this type of cooking, you can incorporate booze. There's so many different ways to really get that fork tender result that we're usually going for when we're dealing with a roasted or pulled pork.
CM: Let me point out that pork butt is not from the hindquarters of the animal.
IA: It is not.
CM: Just to confuse the world about pork. Okay. Pork butt is actually the shoulder.
IA: Yes.
CM: It's the top of the shoulder.
IA: It's the top of the shoulder.
CM: And as you had a specific recipe in mind, I want you to tee this up for Jen and walk her through why one of those kind of braising cuts is so ideal here.
IA: Sure. So Jen, I got you a recipe that I know we're thinking of. We want to keep it weeknight friendly even though it is low and slow. One, this is a recipe that essentially cooks itself that's literally just like its essence. So the recipe I picked today is Kendra Vaculin's citrus braised pork with crispy shallots. So in this recipe we are utilizing boneless pork shoulder. You start off by searing your meat to sort of just get yourself started with that nice char on there. You're starting to build basically the essence of your sauce, throw in all of your oranges, there's some soy, there's some garlic. So you're really getting all those aromatics and your liquids in there. Then you're bringing it up to just like a light boil. You're covering it and you're just simmering it for two hours.
What I love most about this pork, you really can just leave it alone. I think the scary part about pork is oftentimes trying to figure out how to get the desired outcome. How am I going to reach there? So I think that recipes like this that do the heavy lifting for you, whether it's my acid is working really hard to tenderize that pork, whether it's my vessel, this is cooked in a Dutch oven, which is a great conductor of just heat.
CM: And this could be adapted for your slow cooker.
IA: For sure.
CM: We don't call it out specifically here, but the initial searing is one of the things that I do think makes a big difference here. So whether you sear in a skillet and then just tip that meat and deglaze the fond and just dump all that into your crock pot or your slow cooker or whatever, that's the thing that's going to make the difference here. Not the sheer fact of having cooked it in the Dutch oven.
IA: And through and through, this cook time for this pork is three hours.
J: Yeah, that's not terrible to get something really soft. Yeah.
IA: No. And it melts in your mouth. You get that effect, but then also it creates this great sauce out of its braising liquid. So sort of just like you get a two in one, dinner's ready, your sauce is done. And this recipe does feature a step to make crispy shallots, which I really do think takes it over the top. I think that it's a great step into the direction of mastering pork.
J: I feel like if I could sneak a shallot in most things, I would, because I feel like it gives a good flavor, but it feels fancy.
IA: No, it does feel fancy.
CM: Fanciest.
J: And I have to say, if there was one flavor you would have every day forever, I always say citrus. So that name was like, "Ooh," right off the bat.
IA: Jen, we're friends. We're friends already, Jen.
CM: Pork and citrus love each other. That's a feature of Cuban mojo and sour orange as a frequent accompaniment to certain preparations of pork. It can take a lot of flavor. So okay, I'm going to set up two very fast approaches for you, and one is pork chops, but it's specifically pork chops that are thin cut. You'll often find these in a supermarket in a pack of let's say eight, and they're anywhere from a quarter inch to half inch thick. In some markets it might be a special order thing. In other markets like maybe more like Asian markets or some Latin markets.
IA: [inaudible 00:16:12] markets will have it as well.
CM: This would be a very common presentation of pork. And what cutting the pork chops into very thin even pieces does is it means they will take a marinade or seasoning very quickly and you no longer have to worry about cooking them to any kind of specific internal temperature. They will be tender because of the fact that you're really just cooking them to kind of develop a good bit of char on them, develop their flavor, but then ultimately pull them off.
So I have a recipe for soy basted pork chops with herbs and jalapenos. This was from a story that was all about weeknight grilling. It was grilling recipes that were so simple that you could absolutely unequivocally carry them out on a weeknight. And the marinade could not be simpler. It's soy sauce, it's rice vinegar, it's brown sugar, and you just dunk them in a resealable plastic bag with some of the marinade for at least 10 minutes and then you can either grill them or you can use a grill pan, but if you can grill them, oh wow. They are really nice. Just a very different experience of a pork chop.
J: I have a question about in terms of when I grill it, is this something that I am always going to want a thermometer on?
CM: No, no.
J: It's okay? I'd have to figure out how to use a thermometer. I don't use one. This would've been put an extra task on lot of things to learn how to do.
CM: And that's the thing, it's like we didn't want it to be about that. And not only do you not need a thermometer, these things cook in minutes, like single digit minutes.
J: I don't know if I've ever done a pork chop on a grill. I'm thinking like-
IA: Oh, wow, Jen.
CM: Oh, this is big. No, this is good.
IA: Yeah, Jen, pork on the grill is like the eighth world wonder.
CM: So all right, the next recipe, it uses pork chops but in a very different way, crispy pork cutlets with kimchi slaw. This is also a recipe from Kendra Vaculin. And what's cool about this recipe, okay, so when you look at pork chops in particular, do not fear the fat. I think bone-in pork chops are better than boneless pork chops. However, this recipe calls for boneless pork chops and makes the absolute most of them because of how you're preparing them it really kind of mitigates the sort of tendency towards dryness. It's just taking one inch thick boneless pork chops, pounding them out, doing a three-part dredge, which is flour, egg and panko, and then frying them off and pairing them with a really flavorful slaw.
Because you are insulating those chops with that three-part dredge to form a crust akin to what you might've had like a chicken parm or a pork tonkatsu or chicken katsu, you are preserving a lot of moisture in there. Again, you don't really have to worry about interior doneness. They're going to be cooked through by the time the panko is deep burnished golden brown. And when you cut into it, even a boneless pork chop is going to have a lot of flavor and fat and succulence going on because you're not going to have driven it all out, hammering it under the broiler or something.
J: Yeah, I agree. I don't think I've ever pounded a pork chop either. It feels like it's such a dense cut of meat that I wouldn't think I'd start manipulating easily.
CM: It is dense, but the pounding helps tenderize it.
Jen: For sure.
CM: Just as much as the cooking technique and process does. And through the pounding process, you are essentially taking a one-inch-thick pork chop and turning it into a quarter-inch-thick pork chop, which takes a little bit of muscle, but it does a lot of the work for you in terms of keeping that meat tender.
J: Can I ask a stupid sciencey question? So when you mallet it, it breaks the fibers apart so it cooks up softer?
CM: It's a physical process, so rather than Inés with her citrus juices and her marinades and stuff using acids to tenderize the meat, it's actually using, yes, like brute mechanical force to break down some of the muscle tissue and fibers and also just make it thinner. So you comparatively have more surface area which you can apply more crust to and appreciate that pleasantly fatty, rich kind of shattering crust that you'll create on it, which balances out that leaner interior meat.
IA: For sure.
CM: Yeah. Jen, how are you feeling? I feel like we've been doing pork therapy, but it's been good for me. I hope it's been good for you.
J: I was so nervous before I was like, "What if they start talking about things I have no idea how to do?" No, this is super exciting. I feel like I couldn't even imagine what the recipes would be because I haven't cooked with pork in so long, so it is so exciting to try these.
CM: Yeah, you've been really game about this. I cannot wait to see what you decide to cook and how it changes your understanding of this ingredient. And maybe depending on how that goes, and Inés and I can then pitch you on some more advanced pork cookery later on.
IA: We believe in you Jen, you got this.
J: Yay. This is so exciting.
CM: So we sent Jen off to tackle some hopefully foolproof recipes. After another short break, we'll hear whether she got the tender, juicy pork of her dreams.
Hey Jen, how's it going?
J: I'm good, how are you both?
CM: Good. Yeah, I'm joined here once again by Inés. And Inés, how are you?
IA: I'm doing really, really good.
CM: All right, Jen with no further ado, tell us what you made.
IA: All right, so I actually was told I was allowed to pick two recipes to compare. So we went with the citrusy pork shoulder and the crispy shallots.
CM: Ooh, okay.
J: We also did the pork cutlet with the kimchi slaw.
CM: Oh, we love. Fun.
J: Yeah. Those were the two when we looked at the all together that we thought looked like the most... That we would never think to try on our own.
CM: Oh, okay.
J: It seemed like they were going to be very intimidating techniques and we were like, "Okay, so let's just dive in if we're going to do it. Let's just rip the band-aid off."
CM: Intimidating techniques, just hammering a poor piece of meat into submission. Oh my gosh.
J: You know what it was? I think because I've never thought to pound a pork cutlet that I was like, "Oh, are you allowed to do that to pork? Will it make it too tough? Will it make it gross?"
CM: The rules you have.
J: I'm telling you this is way... I did not think this was going to be such a psychological deep dive just to get a few recipes.
CM: Well, obviously I'm so delighted that you did both recipes because they showcase very different techniques and methods. Let's start with talking through the faster recipe, the crispy pork cutlets with kimchi slaw.
J: Yeah, and I don't want to give anything away, but this actually was not technically the faster recipe for me of the two.
IA: Oh.
CM: Now is the time to give things away. I just want to make that clear. Here's where you just got to put all your cards on the table. It was not the faster recipe.
J: This was not the faster, to the point of where my husband came in the kitchen and was like, "Okay, what do you want me to do to move this along?" And I'm like, "No, I can do this. I know I can do this."
CM: What happened?
J: Yeah, so I think it was the multiple steps to this. It wasn't just making the cutlets. It was that I had to then think about assembling the slaw. And so it wasn't technically the pork itself probably, but compared to the other one that was just kind of brown, throw things in and literally go back to work for a couple of hours. It actually was more hands-on than the other one.
CM: Wow. Yeah, that makes sense. There's a recipe that takes 45 minutes, but it's all active time and it's very, very hands-on. And then yeah, there's a three-hour recipe, but it's mostly hands off.
IA: The pot is doing most of the work for you.
CM: Yeah. Was the flour, egg, panko dredge, that three-part dredge, did that feel intimidating? Was that a new sort of technique for you?
J: No. So when I make a traditional chicken cutlet, I'm just kind of fast with it and I'll just do egg and breadcrumb and move on.
CM: You do not do the flour?
J: I do not do the flour part. Just because I feel like I don't know if I notice that much of a difference. And my kids watch a lot of cooking videos and things online and my son was like, "Why don't we do the three step?" I'm like, "Who told you this?" So he was like, "These people know what they're doing. They make you do flour." I was like, "All right, relax."
CM: And he's fact-checking you on that.
J: He really was.
CM: Okay. And apart from your son getting excited about the three part dredge, what were the reviews like? What was the feedback?
J: So everybody loved it. They wanted a little more of that sauce. They felt like the flavor really came in when it was a recipe as a whole.
CM: And Jen, what did you think about how it tasted and what was your experience of that meat? Did it hit that spot of being kind of cooked through and tender but not overdone?
J: Yes. Yeah, I was blown away that it actually worked and I wasn't questioning whether it was done or not. It kind of hit that perfect space of I know how to do this because I know how to make a cutlet, but it's something new because it is a different kind of meat. So it was great.
IA: For what it's worth, I believed in you this whole time.
J: I wish I had known.
CM: Okay, so let's pivot now to talking about the low and slow method. And this was the citrus braised pork with crispy shallots.
IA: Was this your first time doing something braisey with this cut of pork before the Boston butt?
J: No. So I was kind of like, all right, let me see, because it was almost a bit of redemption that way where it's like the tenderloin was a low and slow thing for sure. That was really nice and easy. And then as soon as the recipe said to cut it into the four pieces, I was like, "Oh my gosh." It was like this little light bulb went off over my head. I'm like, "Oh, that makes so much more sense." Because not only are you then browning all around, so you're getting more flavor that way, but now it's going to just... I would assume it cooked faster than that way, I guess, right, because it was the smaller pieces.
CM: Yeah. That's pretty fair to say. It might not be-
IA: Yeah, pretty spot on.
CM: Night and day, but certainly your point about the browning and being able to balance browning all that meat with the volume, like three pounds of meat in a given size pan. There's a nice balance there.
J: It totally made it much less intimidating to have to cut the meat up first. And it was so much easier. And I think too when I was like, "Oh, let me have a recipe that can be a weeknight and be fast." And I saw this and I was like, "Oh shoot, this is hours, is this not that?" I can't even describe to you that I did the browning, threw it together and I was like, "Oh, it's like two o'clock I guess I can go back to doing work." I didn't have to do anything to it. It was crazy. And then once it was at the mark of when it said it should be done, I was like, "Oh my gosh, it is done." I was so surprised. I thought I was really going to have to keep going for another hour and then be like, "Ah, that was too long." I'm one of those people who like the GPS says, turn right. I'm like, "Or..." So I was definitely expecting to still screw this up and I was like, "Oh my God, this is magic. It totally worked."
CM: Here we have some tape of your family's reaction to this braised pork dish. Can we hear that?
J: So it's amazing. It's not dry at all the rest of the pork that we've ever had, and I was worried about the orange flavor being too overpowering in your face orange and the balance is amazing with the soy sauce and the sweetness. It's like we have to put this in rotation. I don't hate pork anymore.
Son: Yeah.
CM: It's not dry like the rest of the pork you cooked.
IA: It's the sounds of the forks cleaning the plates for me.
CM: Well, so how do you feel about this exercise?
J: I'm pretty impressed with myself if we're being [inaudible 00:29:17]
IA: I'm proud of you, I think we opened up telling you that it really is about picking your pork shin, poison with pork, when it comes down to cooking pork. I love that you said that once you really pin down what cut does what, it really becomes just like the possibilities are endless.
CM: And speaking of endless possibilities, you know how we told Jen that there aren't really rules for pork? Well, once Jen tried out options from the slow lane and the fast lane, I couldn't help but give her some recipes that blend those approaches to make delicious and tender pork. First, a couple of recipes that start with searing pork chops before finishing them in a more saucy liquid environment. Then a recipe that uses pork shoulder cut into steaks. We'll drop those rule breakers into the show notes.
J: Yeah, that sounds great too.
CM: Anyway, you did it. You pulled it off.
J: Yay. Thank you so much, both of you. I really appreciate it.
CM: No, this has been so fun. Thank you for being so game, Jen, and thanks to your family as well for getting involved. Okay.
J: They're very proud of themselves to out me on how horrible pork used to be.
CM: Well, hey, you know what? When you're at rock bottom, there's nowhere to go but up, right? If you have a dinner emergency on your hands, write to us at dinnersos@bonappetit.com or leave us a voice message at 212-286-SOS-1. That's 212-286-7071. We'd love to feature your question on the show. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a rating and review on your podcast app of choice and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode.
You can find the recipes mentioned today on the Epicurious app, brought to you by Condé Nast. Just search Epicurious in the app store and download today. And if you're not yet a subscriber, you can sign up today for a 30-day free trial in the app or at bonappetite.com.
Thanks for listening to Dinner SOS. I'm your host, Chris Morocco. My co-host this week is Inés Anguiano. Our senior producer is Michelle O'Brien. Peyton Hayes is our associate producer. Cameron Foos is our assistant producer. Jake Lummus is our studio engineer. This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macrosound. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's head of Global Audio. We're taking a break next week, but we'll be back in November to help solve your Thanksgiving SOSs.